Hey everyone who reads this. I was wondering if any of you might want to read a book with me? It's called "The Heart of Christianity" and it's written by one of my favorite heretics, Marcus J. Borg.
Let me know what you think.
Tuesday, December 8, 2009
Wednesday, November 4, 2009
The Divide
For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. (Ephesians 2:14-18)
What is the divide?
What is the divide?
Friday, October 30, 2009
Dune quote
I just read this in Dune, thought it important: "Give as few orders as possible. Once you've given orders on a subject, you must always give orders on that subject."
Here's another one: "When law and duty are one, united by religion, you never become fully conscious, fully aware of yourself. You are always a little less than an individual."
Here's another one: "When law and duty are one, united by religion, you never become fully conscious, fully aware of yourself. You are always a little less than an individual."
Thursday, October 22, 2009
A Book, Perhaps??
Hey everyone. Just wanted to shoot something your way. A friend of mine sent me the title of this book that he thought I might want to read, or that he thought would help me in some way, not sure, but i looked into it and it seems interesting. I wanted to put it here so you all could look into it a bit, which is what I did for about 15 minutes, and see what kind of an impact it makes on you. As we don't really know what the group is going to look like, reading certain books together is one of my ideas. This one, however, looked particularly intriguing to me.
talk to you all soon...mike
EDIT:
Oops...I forgot to give you the book link =) Here it is: http://www.amazon.com/Tree-Knowledge-Humberto-R-Maturana/dp/0877736421
talk to you all soon...mike
EDIT:
Oops...I forgot to give you the book link =) Here it is: http://www.amazon.com/Tree-Knowledge-Humberto-R-Maturana/dp/0877736421
Saturday, October 17, 2009
deeper than definition
(in response to jason's response to my first email about definition and motivation)
it's funny, i don't know if you intended it jason, but i think you helped me a bit with my understanding of "the thing" i'm trying to get at, though i don't know if i have much more articulation for it.
you said, "how do we engage an idea that is truly foreign to us?" and i think that's the reason why i can't come up with the articulation.
i think i have been engaging or have been engaged in something truly foreign to me, and i don't think it's possible yet to talk about it with clarity.
i think that imagine as a concept IS the engagement of thingS truly foreign...as a community it seems we were created on the foundation of moving into the unknown.
i'm reminded here of a "slogan" we had (that was probably the problem to begin with, that it was a slogan), "engage the mystery...discover identity."
i had no idea what the ramifications of that idea would be.
anyhow, if this thing i'm engaging is truly foreign, it's probably truly foreign to lots of people.
of course, it would be really great if we could just say, "hey, that's foreign to me, i don't think i get that," but the problem is this:
IT'S A TRULY FOREIGN CONCEPT FOR US TO SAY SOMETHING IS TRULY FOREIGN TO US.
WE ALL KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS, AND WE WON'T HANDLE THE RAMIFICATIONS: IT MEANS THAT I'M INCAPABLE OF GETTING "IT" RIGHT NOW.
BUT THAT'S NOT EVEN THE PROBLEM, THAT'S NOT REALLY WHAT IT MEANS, BECAUSE YOU SEE I JUST DEFINED SOMETHING ON THE SURFACE...I DEFINED FACTS, AND FACTS ARE NOT WHAT WE ALLOW TO KEEP US FROM MOVING FORWARD INTO THE UNKNOWN (THOUGH OUR VERSION OF THE FACTS ARE WHAT WE USE TO REMAIN STATIC).
THE FACTS DO NOT GIVE IMMEDIATE MOTIVATION TO THE PERSON MOVING OUT OF THE WAY OF THE BUS; THE FACTS ARE AT LEAST ONE OR TWO STEPS REMOVED FROM THE CAUSATION OF MOTION.
OUR UNDERSTANDING OF THE FACTS, THE DEFINITIONS ON AND OF THE SURFACE OF THE SITUATION, GIVE US SOMETHING TO ENGAGE ON A WHOLE NEW LEVEL; A DEEPER, MORE ABSTRACT AND INTANGIBLE LEVEL.
OUR UNDERSTANDING LEADS TO EMOTIONS, AND THOSE EMOTIONS LEAD TO MOTIVATIONS, AND THOSE MOTIVATIONS LEAD TO MOVEMENT.
WITHOUT AT LEAST THE THREAT OF BEING UNCOMFORTABLE (IN THE CASE OF THE BUS, IT'S ACTUALLY THE THREAT OF DEATH), THERE IS NO MOVEMENT.
NOW MAYBE WE SEE WHAT THE PROBLEM IS WHEN IT COMES TO ENGAGING TRULY FOREIGN IDEAS: WE HAVE SOMEHOW MAPPED REAL DISCOMFORT ONTO THE FEELINGS WE HAVE WHEN WE ARE INCAPABLE OF "GETTING SOMETHING" RIGHT NOW.
A PERCEIVED LACK OF VALUE EQUALS DISCOMFORT.
AND THE PERCEIVED PAIN IS SO REAL TO US THAT WE WILL EVEN LEAVE OFF THE "RIGHT NOW" AT THE END OF THAT PREVIOUS SENTENCE SO THAT WE LEAVE OURSELVES WITH ABSOLUTELY NO HOPE OR EVEN RESPONSIBILITY OF EVER MOVING FORWARD INTO THE UNKNOWN.
ok, enough capitols.
i think the more concise articulation i'm looking for is coursing through the puzzle i tried to create in that capitalized paragraph.
we are so addicted to raw knowledge, to the data and the facts, that it's damn near impossible to get at what meaning or belief really means, to get at what understanding means.
i almost don't want to articulate this stuff, because if i do, maybe i'll get distracted by the definition and the data and the facts the words represent...worse, maybe others will get distracted by them.
it's really difficult to even know what to do anymore, and while i'm a bit scared of what that means, my fear will not keep me from moving forward into this unknown.
if it's real, and it is because i can make at least some sense of it all, then i will engage it.
there's nothing that can ever keep me from moving forward unless i allow the fear of an idea to EQUAL the real pain of physical discomfort, unless i perceive my emotional value as a human being as the exact same thing as physical life and death.
if i do, then when i feel devalued, ie. scared because i don't understand something i'm thinking about like most intelligent people do, it will seem like a real bus that is very big, solid and heavy is coming straight for me, and I WILL RUN.
if i don't, then i will be scared, and i'll make all sorts of assumptions and interpretations about what i'm experiencing, doing everything i can to realize that there is no bus, that it's just a bunch of thoughts and ideas that i get to try to make sense of so the world can become more loving hopefully, and then i'll probably run away to safety and try to start a new dialogue group with a bunch of people that are also trying to see that there is no bus.
if i don't perceive my emotional value as a human as being exactly the same thing as physical life and death, then i'll try to talk about my incongruities, trying to be honest about the things inside of me that don't seem to line up, trying to be open in regards to my actions that seemingly shouldn't be happening, and i'll let you know before hand when i'm about ready to engage something that i do not believe is healthy according to the message i have spoken over the past years.
i hope all of this brings to mind the concept that we are made in god's image.
we don't have to worry about this shit anymore.
i'm sitting here thinking about it, and i keep saying to myself, "this is humility...i'm just talking about humility again."
if that's the case, then what an amazing concept!!
of course (maybe), the question becomes, "do we experience humility by engaging the possibility that the perception of our value is not equal to life and death, or do we engage the possibility that the perception of our value is not equal to life and death by experiencing humility?"
i can't put my finger on which happened or is happening first in my life...i would love to get all of your opinions on this.
it just seems like until we accept that our value as a person is not the same as life and death, whatever that means by the way, i'm pretty sure we won't really understand what anything means.
i hope this is helpful for you all...i think i've needed this for a long time.
it's funny, i don't know if you intended it jason, but i think you helped me a bit with my understanding of "the thing" i'm trying to get at, though i don't know if i have much more articulation for it.
you said, "how do we engage an idea that is truly foreign to us?" and i think that's the reason why i can't come up with the articulation.
i think i have been engaging or have been engaged in something truly foreign to me, and i don't think it's possible yet to talk about it with clarity.
i think that imagine as a concept IS the engagement of thingS truly foreign...as a community it seems we were created on the foundation of moving into the unknown.
i'm reminded here of a "slogan" we had (that was probably the problem to begin with, that it was a slogan), "engage the mystery...discover identity."
i had no idea what the ramifications of that idea would be.
anyhow, if this thing i'm engaging is truly foreign, it's probably truly foreign to lots of people.
of course, it would be really great if we could just say, "hey, that's foreign to me, i don't think i get that," but the problem is this:
IT'S A TRULY FOREIGN CONCEPT FOR US TO SAY SOMETHING IS TRULY FOREIGN TO US.
WE ALL KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS, AND WE WON'T HANDLE THE RAMIFICATIONS: IT MEANS THAT I'M INCAPABLE OF GETTING "IT" RIGHT NOW.
BUT THAT'S NOT EVEN THE PROBLEM, THAT'S NOT REALLY WHAT IT MEANS, BECAUSE YOU SEE I JUST DEFINED SOMETHING ON THE SURFACE...I DEFINED FACTS, AND FACTS ARE NOT WHAT WE ALLOW TO KEEP US FROM MOVING FORWARD INTO THE UNKNOWN (THOUGH OUR VERSION OF THE FACTS ARE WHAT WE USE TO REMAIN STATIC).
THE FACTS DO NOT GIVE IMMEDIATE MOTIVATION TO THE PERSON MOVING OUT OF THE WAY OF THE BUS; THE FACTS ARE AT LEAST ONE OR TWO STEPS REMOVED FROM THE CAUSATION OF MOTION.
OUR UNDERSTANDING OF THE FACTS, THE DEFINITIONS ON AND OF THE SURFACE OF THE SITUATION, GIVE US SOMETHING TO ENGAGE ON A WHOLE NEW LEVEL; A DEEPER, MORE ABSTRACT AND INTANGIBLE LEVEL.
OUR UNDERSTANDING LEADS TO EMOTIONS, AND THOSE EMOTIONS LEAD TO MOTIVATIONS, AND THOSE MOTIVATIONS LEAD TO MOVEMENT.
WITHOUT AT LEAST THE THREAT OF BEING UNCOMFORTABLE (IN THE CASE OF THE BUS, IT'S ACTUALLY THE THREAT OF DEATH), THERE IS NO MOVEMENT.
NOW MAYBE WE SEE WHAT THE PROBLEM IS WHEN IT COMES TO ENGAGING TRULY FOREIGN IDEAS: WE HAVE SOMEHOW MAPPED REAL DISCOMFORT ONTO THE FEELINGS WE HAVE WHEN WE ARE INCAPABLE OF "GETTING SOMETHING" RIGHT NOW.
A PERCEIVED LACK OF VALUE EQUALS DISCOMFORT.
AND THE PERCEIVED PAIN IS SO REAL TO US THAT WE WILL EVEN LEAVE OFF THE "RIGHT NOW" AT THE END OF THAT PREVIOUS SENTENCE SO THAT WE LEAVE OURSELVES WITH ABSOLUTELY NO HOPE OR EVEN RESPONSIBILITY OF EVER MOVING FORWARD INTO THE UNKNOWN.
ok, enough capitols.
i think the more concise articulation i'm looking for is coursing through the puzzle i tried to create in that capitalized paragraph.
we are so addicted to raw knowledge, to the data and the facts, that it's damn near impossible to get at what meaning or belief really means, to get at what understanding means.
i almost don't want to articulate this stuff, because if i do, maybe i'll get distracted by the definition and the data and the facts the words represent...worse, maybe others will get distracted by them.
it's really difficult to even know what to do anymore, and while i'm a bit scared of what that means, my fear will not keep me from moving forward into this unknown.
if it's real, and it is because i can make at least some sense of it all, then i will engage it.
there's nothing that can ever keep me from moving forward unless i allow the fear of an idea to EQUAL the real pain of physical discomfort, unless i perceive my emotional value as a human being as the exact same thing as physical life and death.
if i do, then when i feel devalued, ie. scared because i don't understand something i'm thinking about like most intelligent people do, it will seem like a real bus that is very big, solid and heavy is coming straight for me, and I WILL RUN.
if i don't, then i will be scared, and i'll make all sorts of assumptions and interpretations about what i'm experiencing, doing everything i can to realize that there is no bus, that it's just a bunch of thoughts and ideas that i get to try to make sense of so the world can become more loving hopefully, and then i'll probably run away to safety and try to start a new dialogue group with a bunch of people that are also trying to see that there is no bus.
if i don't perceive my emotional value as a human as being exactly the same thing as physical life and death, then i'll try to talk about my incongruities, trying to be honest about the things inside of me that don't seem to line up, trying to be open in regards to my actions that seemingly shouldn't be happening, and i'll let you know before hand when i'm about ready to engage something that i do not believe is healthy according to the message i have spoken over the past years.
i hope all of this brings to mind the concept that we are made in god's image.
we don't have to worry about this shit anymore.
i'm sitting here thinking about it, and i keep saying to myself, "this is humility...i'm just talking about humility again."
if that's the case, then what an amazing concept!!
of course (maybe), the question becomes, "do we experience humility by engaging the possibility that the perception of our value is not equal to life and death, or do we engage the possibility that the perception of our value is not equal to life and death by experiencing humility?"
i can't put my finger on which happened or is happening first in my life...i would love to get all of your opinions on this.
it just seems like until we accept that our value as a person is not the same as life and death, whatever that means by the way, i'm pretty sure we won't really understand what anything means.
i hope this is helpful for you all...i think i've needed this for a long time.
Thursday, October 15, 2009
dialog here
hey everyone...you must have received the email with the new blog for our dialogue group. i wanted it to be "dialog.blogspot.com," but it was taken. then i tried dialogue and diablog and diablogue all with .blogspot.com at the end of the name, and they were all taken as well. anyway, this will do. this should help take care of long email chains that bother the hell out people. after awhile they are almost impossible to decipher.
i'm not quite sure how this works, but i believe you just subscribe to the blog by hitting the "subscribe to" link at the bottom of this post. at that point you can login to blogspot, hit the orange B at the top left, and then you can add or edit posts. the whole thing was a pretty confusing process for me...maybe someone else has a way to explain it that makes it easier to understand. at any rate, the only way i can create new posts or edit old ones, like i'm doing right now, is to get to my dashboard and work from the list of all the blogs i either author or follow.
we'll talk more about it on sunday morning.
talk to you all soon =)
i'm not quite sure how this works, but i believe you just subscribe to the blog by hitting the "subscribe to" link at the bottom of this post. at that point you can login to blogspot, hit the orange B at the top left, and then you can add or edit posts. the whole thing was a pretty confusing process for me...maybe someone else has a way to explain it that makes it easier to understand. at any rate, the only way i can create new posts or edit old ones, like i'm doing right now, is to get to my dashboard and work from the list of all the blogs i either author or follow.
we'll talk more about it on sunday morning.
talk to you all soon =)
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